Sue Wadden (01:55):Yeah, I definitely have some questions about that, but before we take on that aspect, just tell me how you started. Were you like a stockbroker that was like, "Nope, I like history better"?
Jason Klein (02:07):Well, not exactly, but I did not start in the field of historic preservation. I went to school for something totally different. I was working in management consulting for a bit, and residential construction and renovation was always something I did in my life up until that point. And I started my own company doing basically residential renovation and general construction, cabinet making. And the communities that I was working in had a large population of historic structures all in Northeast Ohio, homes that were built early to mid-1800s through the turn of the 20th century. And I fell in love with caring for them, and particularly paying attention to best practices involved in historic preservation. So, the construction piece I learned from a lot of great mentors; the historic preservation piece, I'm self-taught, a lot of extracurricular classwork and just studying on my own to learn the theories and principles of those.
Sue Wadden (03:22):I'm calling in here on this Colormixology podcast from my home in Lakewood, so it's a 1922 American Foursquare. So, I have a love of historic homes as well, which is love/hate relationship because an old home takes love and nurturing, for sure. So, I appreciate your background, and I probably have questions for you off camera about some projects I'm working on. But let's get back to color. So, I think since we are a color-focused podcast, we want to start there. What are the hidden stories of pigment, historic pigment? Tell us about design and construction from 200 years ago.
Jason Klein (03:59):I think paint is a really important piece in historic preservation. It's a historical account of when structures were built, the different building techniques that were going on at those particular times. It also tells us a lot about what was available, especially early on in the development of paint. I think about early 1800s in Northeast Ohio because that's where I primarily practiced historic preservation, when it was first settled here and paint was essentially slaked lime and water. There were no color pigments yet. If a farmer wanted to color the coating that they were going to put on their barn, for example, or their house, they used it with what they found. In this area, it would be clay, or they would use brick dust, or other things like that. Soot from a lamp. Just weird, interesting things to get a color to change the tone of where they were living and working.
Sue Wadden (05:04):So, to paint a color picture, slaked lime would be essentially white?
Jason Klein (05:09):Yep, pretty much.
Sue Wadden (05:10):Gotcha. I can't even imagine the batch to batch consistency question, if you're grabbing clay from the earth and putting it in your paint, that's insane to me.
Jason Klein (05:19):No consistency. And it makes it really hard when you're a conservator, and you're trying to find a specific color from a historic structure in that time period, because there's so many variations. You can get it close, even with all the different forms that are out there to try to evaluate or analyze that paint or coating.
Sue Wadden (05:43):Can you talk a little bit about the technology and how you would discover that? That's a question we get all the time, is people want to preserve their Victorian, but they don't know how to go about finding the color. Is there a tool or a process that you like and that you use?
Jason Klein (05:58):Well, simple investigations. If, in removing moldings or removing pieces of the structure, in a very careful way, of course, but if they haven't been removed before, a lot of times there will be remnants of an original color. Now, there's a caveat to that, because light fades color, oxidization changes specific colors. So, you can get close. It may not be exact. I think, depending on the approach you want to take, if it's preservation or restoration or rehabilitation, those are all very different things, would depend on how far you want to go to find out what original colors were. The best way is a microscopic analysis. So, it's taking, I think it can be as small as maybe an inch by an inch square of old wall covering. And microscopically, it can be analyzed to tell what different pigments were used, the consistency of those pigments, and eventually gets you to what color was previously on walls or woodwork or those components.
Sue Wadden (07:14):I like what you said, that there's very different outcomes of whether it's restoration, renovation, or rehabilitation. So, can you just quickly describe the differences between for our listeners?
Jason Klein (07:27):Sure. So, historic preservation, you're preserving a structure or a space where it currently exists in time, so you're preserving what is there. Restoration is restoring it to a specific time period. So, as we all live in our houses, historic or otherwise, just life necessitates that we change things, we adapt them for modern living; whether it be painting a room or changing trim or putting new floors down, it does evolve over time. So, restoration is picking a specific time period and taking it back to that. And then renovation is... There's a little more leeway in renovation. You are maybe keeping an eye for the historic, but you are changing the space to fit your need at that moment.
Sue Wadden (08:26):Yeah, a more modern need. So, that's a perfect segue into what I want to ask next, which is about what do the hidden stories tell us about the eras in which they were created, the hidden color stories, if you will, or pigments, in safer restoration, in your experience? I think that we get questions all the time about decades and periods of color. So, I'd like your point of view there.
Jason Klein (08:48):Sure. Early on, so maybe colonial American style, 1790 to 1820, very simple. There weren't that many pigments and they were expensive at that point. White lead was used as the whiting agent in coatings. And then from that, pigments were used to color it. And there were only a few. There was ocher, umber, and sienna, and then combinations of those created these different colors. So, from that period, there wasn't a lot of choice, and at that time as well, everything was handmade. So, painters were really craftsmen at that point.
(09:32):To your comment earlier, there was no consistency. Even then, even when there were pigments, they were still all natural materials, and it was hard to get really true consistency in that. And you see variations, if you walk through a historic structure that has been preserved in its original state, you see wild variations in colors and tones and those sort of things.
(10:02):Then as technology really advanced, in regards to paint, totally changed color palettes and what was available to people. So, late 1800s, and I don't recall the exact date, but I believe Sherwin-Williams came out with the first colored discs that made pre-mixed paint available to the general public so that anyone could, not just a craftsperson, but anyone could paint and have that material to use in their homes.
Sue Wadden (10:35):Yes, it was an important time for us. We're 158 years old, I think is our most recent birthday, Sherwin-Williams. And so in that time we've seen a lot of technology and development, and I love hearing your perspective on it, because I don't know much about the time before. So, it's great to hear a preservationist talk about it, because consistency is what keeps us up at night, and making sure that we deliver on that promise of innovation and performance and great products. I can't even imagine being a designer in the 1860s. I'd be losing my mind.
(11:12):So then talk about where color really started to take shape, and really became symbolic of those decades, which in my mind are like Victorian era, Arts and Crafts movement.
Jason Klein (11:24):Absolutely. So, colonial American style, that was the first big movement of color and paint, but still it was largely what was available. So, the pigments outside of the ochers and the umbers and sienna, most of the whiting lead and other things that required some process to use was not in the United States, it was overseas. So, when the pigments became more available, Victorian period, for example, Queen Anne style architecture, it really started to grow the availability and the affordability, quite honestly, of different color palettes. So, as the technology grew, so did the access, I guess. The Victorian period, Queen Anne, a lot of browns and tans, olives, really rich reds.
Sue Wadden (12:21):Rich reds, purples.
Jason Klein (12:23):Yeah, purples. So, to me it seems, at that point, tones of paint colors really started to change. They're more... I don't want to say vibrant, I think that came along a little after that in the Art Deco era. After the world wars, when the world needed something different, I think color played a big part in that, and we saw color palettes, or you see color palettes became more bold, more expressive.
Sue Wadden (12:54):Well, in the Victorian era too, so many people associate the idea of a Painted Lady in Victorian times. That was really coming out of Europe. That was a lot of what the inspiration was, the design aesthetic of the moment, which was opulence and customization. And so people all of a sudden had this choice, and they wanted to do something that was really, really unique. So, you had this overabundance of color in some ways, color and texture and pattern. And it really defined that era, particularly in Cleveland, which is a pretty historic community. There's neighborhoods of Victorians that to this day are just stunning, and it's fun to see how people either lean into the preservation or try to make them more contemporary, but keeping the values of the Victorian times. I love seeing that. It's fun, strolling through those neighborhoods.
(13:44):But I think what I want to talk about is the transition from that. So, we love... I think people maybe if they're not familiar with preservation, they understand that there were architects and designers that really embodied periods of time and historic color. Frank Lloyd Wright obviously comes to mind. But can you talk about that, and how art, design, and architecture combined with color aesthetics to reveal colors of those decades?
Jason Klein (14:12):I will give it a shot. So, Frank Lloyd Wright, the most notable color I think connected with him is Cherokee Red. And it's not that that was the only red that really he gravitated toward. In a lot of his different designs there were different, I guess, shades of that Cherokee Red. But I think what is important is with Frank Lloyd Wright, and other architects as well, is that it was his color choice was very bold, and it accentuated his design and his style.
Sue Wadden (14:46):And artists, even these iconic architects, they are people too, and they have favorites, and they have palettes that I identify with. So, we always talk about, with the Arts and Crafts movement, that was probably a 25 year, does that sound about right?
Jason Klein (15:00):Yeah.
Sue Wadden (15:01):25 years of popularity, where it was really an evolution from the overabundance of the Victorian times to this absolute passion and commitment to the earth and nature. And so Frank Lloyd Wright is so recognizable from his Prairie style, and it's his commitment to the environment and sustainable practices, even at the turn of the last century, that are really prevalent today. I think from an American architecture standpoint, it's still one of the single strongest influences that I've seen or studied, and it's influencing color today, which is amazing.
(15:36):But paint technology had a big play, and you brought it up earlier, in Art Deco. At the time post-war, we were able to get pigments that had a lot more clarity. So, if you think of the turquoises and the bright blues and the clean whites, simply the technology wasn't available in an interior or exterior product until those post-war, into the teens and '20s era, and that's where color really brightened up. So, it gave people the opportunity to explore what their point of view was on color, and it really changed the game from a paint and color perspective, in my opinion, pretty significantly. And it hasn't slowed down since then. I think every decade that we've talked about, from the '30s, '40s, '50s, '60s, '70s, '80s, they all have identifiable colors that really summed up that generation's point of view on color. And that could be a whole other podcast that we talk about.
(16:34):But I think since your background is so much about the process of this restoration, I'd love to talk about how do people find this information? How do they go about if they want to stay... I don't know, just explore the historic roots of their home, where do they start? How do you begin this?
Jason Klein (16:55):Well, I think a good place are local historical societies. A lot of times, depending on where it's at, historical societies have records, and whether that's diaries from people who lived and built the communities, or even pictures, even black and white pictures can tell you a lot about colors of interiors and exteriors, and how design was approached and done.
Sue Wadden (17:21):Can you explain that a little? Dark versus light, that sort of thing?
Jason Klein (17:24):Yeah, dark versus light. If there are, well, just different coatings on walls, wallpaper versus paint, things like that. Window treatments. Those things can help give clues to what some different color palettes may have been at that particular time. Like all of us, as time goes on, whether we get tired or the house gets tired and we want to update, we want to repaint, we want to do things, that was done back then too, maybe not to the degree in which we all do that now, but it was done every so often. So, it gives clues. Diaries are another thing. When there are diaries of historic houses, and you read through those and someone's describing how the light came through a window, it could be the smallest little thing that describes what a room or what a structure, both in interior and exterior, looked like. You can get clues to what the design was like.
Sue Wadden (18:31):So, if you're work... So, say a brand new project comes across your desk, how would you start that? Would you go into the structure and get some scrapings?
Jason Klein (18:39):I think the first place I would start is I would probably remove some trim, I would look in window jams and sashes and places that often get overlooked when they're repainted or when a renovation happens. Behind doorways that go to a second story or behind a closet doorway; a lot of those spaces that were painted originally are never touched again because no one sees them. So, I'm not saying that I may or may not do that, but it's those sort of clues that you can find in old structures that are easy to do, easy to look for, that homeowners can do themselves. I mean, even very small historical societies can do those sort of things when they're thinking about approaching a preservation or a renovation project or restoration project.
Sue Wadden (19:35):And I will say, shameless plug, but paint companies, right? They have a catalog of our colors. And so we try to do our very best to talk about those colors of the decade to just at least be a guidepost on what was going on at the time, what we understand from our archives, and where people can start to find their own preferences. It's a good resource, at least.
Jason Klein (19:56):Absolutely. I think if shades or colors of paint are found that are believed to be historic, or even original to the structure, being able to take a piece of that to your local Sherwin-Williams store and have that color matched in small quantities to see what that looks like today is a good way to tell if possibly that was the color that was used originally.
Sue Wadden (20:24):It's a good test, because sometimes you may find that the color that once was was not really where you want it to be. And even though there's an eye for restoration and renovation, you maybe don't want to preserve. If you don't like drab brown, and that was the color, you're not stuck with that. So, I think there's a tension point that you want to uncover. It's whether you're, like you said, are you preserving, or is this going to be a nod to once was in restoration and renovation? And I think that's valid advice.
Jason Klein (21:00):And the reality is, so in historic preservation, we never want to do something that can't be undone. So, with wall coatings, wood coatings, paint, while it's being covered up, that doesn't mean that someone can't go back and find out what that color was prior to how it currently exists. That's the great thing about painting, and even homeowners, in a scenario where they have a historic home, and they're just tired of that drab green or whatever color and they want to update it, it can be undone at some point in time.
Sue Wadden (21:43):Let's talk about now, in modern times. Why is it important to have an eye on the history of the building and original design elements? Do you think that helps, even from your design and construction days, do you think that helps inform the best way a home should present itself?
Jason Klein (22:01):Yeah, I do. I think that it looks at the technology of construction, how it has grown, how it has gotten better, maybe how some things haven't gotten better, but-
Sue Wadden (22:13):I can give an example. So, my house is 100 years old, and over the holiday I painted my dining room black, because black is in the color trend world and an important color right now. And I thought, "I think I want some drama, I want to see this." And I have a, it's a tiny... A Foursquare's kind of small in Cleveland. And the dining room is not very big, and it just overpowered the room, and it needs to go back to something lighter, because it just doesn't speak to the character of this home. It's not a grand space, it can't handle that amount of chroma and value, this darkness, this dark depth, that I didn't like it almost as quickly as I painted it.
(22:54):So, I think for me, understanding when a home was built does help inform some of the decisions on style and color. It's not the only decision, but I think it really does help. And so again, just doing a little research, if you're in an older home. I mean, for instance, if you have a 1970s-inspired suburban modern split-level, you wouldn't put some colors in that house because it would clash with the design intention of the architecture. So, I think that does help take a home to the next level, if you at least have a sense of where it started and where it came.
Jason Klein (23:31):There is a lot of documentation. I think another you asked about where someone can look to find information? I think libraries are another good resource, that have information about building techniques at different time periods and design techniques at different time periods. Again, historic palettes, Sherwin-Williams is a great place to go to learn about those. And I think the key when investigating or looking into those design components in your own home is using multiple sources. So, Sherwin-Williams and a historical society and a library, and maybe even talking to neighbors who have lived in your neighborhood for generations. You meet people who their father was the contractor who built these houses or their grandfather. Those memories are still around about original designs, and techniques, and colors, and community, and people who lived there and lived in them, and how they did that. Because I think how people live in their houses informs us a lot about the design and vice versa.
Sue Wadden (24:45):But does technology help with that? For instance, AI in research, is there opportunity there to learn more, obviously very quickly, about historic preservation and color?
Jason Klein (24:59):I think so. I think that it's fairly new. I do not have a lot of experience using that right now, for no other reason that I have other resources that have proved very useful.
Sue Wadden (25:16):Literally libraries at your fingertips, I guess.
Jason Klein (25:18):Yes, right outside my office. But I do think it will be useful. I think that again, the more information you can gather when thinking about design and residences, for example, I think all the better.
Sue Wadden (25:37):I wonder if there's... People do research after they listen. Is there something they could look up, a research project that's been done, a preservation project that's been done, that people could understand just how powerful preservation actually could be for their spaces?
Jason Klein (25:53):One specific project... I don't know, I'm biased. So, the one project that started back in the '60s is Hale Farm and Village, which is owned and operated by the Western Reserve Historical Society. Again, I'm a little biased, but it is a place where there are over 30 historic structures that depict architectural and design history of almost the entirety of the 19th century. So, there are 1805 log structures to Federal style, incredibly ornate, Jonathan Goldsmith, who is an architect, home. That there's just that wide variety of architectural history. And I consider that a project because it's not necessarily finished, it's just where it exists right now.
Sue Wadden (26:45):It's like a living, breathing nod to history. So, I have been there several times. It is a charming place. And for anybody in Cleveland that wants a wonderful thing to do on an afternoon, sunny afternoon, definitely visit Hale Farm. But in all communities around at least North America, there are historic... What do we call them? Recreation? What would we call that? Historic preservation sites?
Jason Klein (27:09):Yeah, historic site. Historic site. Historic museum. I think the Garfield site, which the National Park Service operates here, is another fantastic, I'll say historic home that people should check out.
Sue Wadden (27:24):Living history, I love it. I love it. Doesn't mean that it's going to be what you do in your own home, but it's great to revisit the past to inform what you want to do in the future. So, this has been amazing, but I have one question. What's one color discovery that might surprise our listeners? Is there anything that you've uncovered?
Jason Klein (27:46):Well, I know an interesting fact. I did not uncover this.
Sue Wadden (27:51):I like fun facts.
Jason Klein (27:52):So, fun fact, paint was first used over 40,000 years ago, and it was art. It was not used as a wall covering or anything like that. So, 40,000 years.
Sue Wadden (28:09):So, is it the cave paintings in France?
Jason Klein (28:12):Yeah.
Sue Wadden (28:13):Yes! Paint is powerful. We'll say that.
Jason Klein (28:16):Yeah, it is.
Sue Wadden (28:18):All right. Well, tell everybody listening how they can find out more information on the Western Reserve, or how they can find you if you have social handles, because people, they'll want to learn more.
Jason Klein (28:28):Sure. The Historical Society, WRHS.org. The social handles for the Western Reserve Historical Society, it's Facebook, Instagram, and X, and they are @clestartshere, C-L-E starts here. That's really it.
Sue Wadden (28:47):That's great. Well, Jason, thank you so much for being here. I loved what we talked about, and I think people are going to be really interested, and so we appreciate it.
Jason Klein (28:56):I appreciate it too. Thank you very much.
Sue Wadden (29:03):Before we talk to our next guest, we'd like to take a moment to congratulate our April designer of the month, Natalie Papier of Home EC. Check out her eclectic and colorful designs at homeecop.com and @home_ec_op on Instagram.
(29:24):And now, welcome to the show, Amy Milani. Amy, it's so great to see you as always.
Amy Milani (29:28):It's great to see you, Sue.
Sue Wadden (29:30):We've talked about this conversation for a really long time, so it's finally happening. So, tell a little bit to our listeners about your background and your experience in the realm of preservation.
Amy Milani (29:42):Well, thanks for having me today. I think I come at preservation from a lot of different angles, and that's kind of unusual. Usually you find one camp you feel comfortable in, but I approach preservation from a lot of different ways. I do have a classical background, interior design. So, I did start out learning about design. And my first job out of college was working for Marshall Erdman & Associates, and he was a colleague of Frank Lloyd Wright, and he designed prefabricated medical clinics that were used all over the country, but the way that he localized them was sort of a Wrightish technique of using local artists, local color, local materials on these prefab clinics. So, our job in the interior design program was to get that done. And it was just really interesting, and it showed me the first professional exposure to how important regionalism is, that local aesthetic, drawing my attention to that.
(30:47):But at the same time, I am an artist, so I was studying acrylic painting as well, and learning how to mix color and paint. And as you know that's, as a designer, just understanding the foundations of color mixing and what goes into that. And I decided to get more into it and dig a little deeper with that regionalism idea. And I did a master's degree in the American Southwest and looking at Southwestern design, and how Southwestern design has a lot of regional influences, regional color, and what goes into that.
(31:26):And then I had the opportunity to move to Europe, which was sort of, "Okay, we're really going to dive into preservation." Ended up in Prague, of all places, during a time when the city was really exploding, it had opened up and it was going from a very gray place to a very colorful place in a very short time period. Tourism was flooding in, and just to be in the middle of all that, and watching it unfold and unravel in front of me and seeing good examples of preservation being done and then other, "What's going on there? What are they doing? That's crazy" in Prague.
(32:06):So, then we moved to Vienna, Austria. And so I was like, "Okay, I need to study this too." So, I was able to get a doctorate at the University of Vienna, and really look at how preservationists approach design and how designers approach these older buildings, and they're very different methods, and all the while studying color, painting on the side.
(32:30):So, that all led me eventually to Sherwin-Williams. And again, I felt really thrilled to be working in the area of color within Sherwin-Williams, because I think I've worked in a number of different capacities, as you know, doing everything and especially color specification, product specification. And looking now in Charleston and Savannah at preservation specifically. So, it's been a long journey, a lot of different places. But I think this is what's so fascinating, is that Europe, preservation is a very different thing, because it's not really optional. They have all these old buildings, what are they going to do with them? It's like they have too many. Can you imagine that problem, of having too many old buildings to deal with? And yet I felt like there was two very strong camps: you had the folks at the preservation office just really wanting to maintain what was there, and then you had the architects and designers trying to move things forward, and that's just so interesting.
Sue Wadden (33:47):Well, and that leads to the second question that I have to talk about, which is how do you help people through that journey of establishing what is preservation versus modernity? Something that's of today.
Amy Milani (34:01):Absolutely. And I think when I worked with homeowners, it's really like an honor. You have to treat that project like, okay, we have this very special building, but then we have an owner, and the owner wants to put their chapter on the property. And so even though they recognize that it's a very important building or something worth saving, they want to put their mark on it. So, you're right, you have to come to terms with that. So, the first thing you do in a project like that is determine what are the materials that we really need to showcase?
(34:36):And it's usually, if you think about it in design, a lot of times your concept, designers will start with a fresh canvas, and they won't have anything down, and they get to pick what colors and materials and put it all together. In a preservation project, you're actually working a little backwards, first identifying, "Okay, what are we dealing with, and what's important for this homeowner that they want to keep in the space?" And then we have to work around it. So, it's a different type of challenge.
(35:04):And I personally like those challenges. I like having constraints, because I think it's more rewarding at the end of the day, you know what I mean? Because you're pleasing the client, you're doing your best for the home, and you're meeting everyone in the middle. But it is actually, I think, harder, because you've got all those constraints. So, you're always looking at materials, and are we restoring these floors? Are we restoring the tile work? Are we exposing the brick? Are we exposing the beams? And then suddenly you have a color palette. Those are colors that you're dealing with, and how can we best showcase them through the walls and the furniture and the other colors we bring into the space?
Sue Wadden (35:48):Is there a rule of thumb there, from your perspective as designer and preservationist? Do you pick a couple of elements in a home versus... What I'm trying to say is sometimes in a renovation or a historic renovation, it can look too stuffy and too old. So, do you pick a couple of things to really revitalize, and then make the other things more of today?
Amy Milani (36:12):I think that the shell, that shell of architecture, when you're exposing the brick and the ceilings and the flooring, the floor, there's so much color in the home is taken up by the floor, and that flooring is going to dominate the palette, but it isn't as limiting as you would think. Luckily in design, there's not one right answer. So, we're not talking about, it's not like, "Oh, this is the one color that's going to work, and that's not my thing." So, I think that luckily in art and in design, as you know, you have a lot of different options. But I do think maintaining that shell, that if you think of the space itself, people like to see that exposed. And that's one thing I learned in Europe, when I would see these projects that have that exposure, or a historic home that was open for tour, you would be able to see those layers. That makes it-
Sue Wadden (37:14):Like the mark of history, almost.
Amy Milani (37:16):Exactly. And we've talked about when you're walking down the staircase, and you see how it's dipping because people have just been treading on that stair for hundreds of years or holding onto that banister. And there's something just really beautiful about that, showing that human wear on the... So, maintaining some of those elements.
(37:36):And I feel like the kitchens and baths, that's on the other end of the spectrum. Nobody wants a bathroom from the 1700s, we just can't go there at all. I mean, I don't care. So, I feel like the expectation is... And I think this is another reason why color is so critical, because you can pull those colors into those spaces or harmonize with colors so that it feels natural in transition, but then you have a fully modern kitchen or you have a fully modern bathroom, and it doesn't feel stuffy or old-fashioned.
Sue Wadden (38:11):So Amy, you live in an incredible historic city of Charleston. So, talk a little bit about how history influences the day-to-day life in this amazing Southern city.
Amy Milani (38:22):Well, I think as a designer too, just learning about where you're from and how that influences your work. Either you're embracing it or you're reacting against it. But I love just walking through the city and just as a designer, you just can't get enough information about... Every day you discover something different, a way colors are used together. I will walk down the same street over and over, and then I'm like, "The way those colors are reacting, I just..." It's something I want to remember and maybe use again. It's almost like the city is your textbook and you're just like-
Sue Wadden (38:59):Beautiful?
Amy Milani (39:00):Yeah. If you keep your eyes open, you're always learning something that you just see in a new way and want to incorporate. But I feel like Charleston is so incredible because it has a lot of very, very active organizations and programs for preservation locally where you can get involved. And so that day-to-day, I was just participating in Design in Mind at the Charleston Historic Foundation, they throw this beautiful, elaborate festival. And so I just can go and participate in that as well. So, I just feel like it just gives all these opportunities to be able to be involved.
Sue Wadden (39:46):But I think what I like about the flavor of historic preservation in different cities is each city has its own distinct mark on preservation, don't you think?
Amy Milani (39:56):I think that that's why it's so much fun to have Charleston, Savannah just close, down the road from each other.
Sue Wadden (40:04):Sister cities, right?
Amy Milani (40:05):Absolutely. Sisters from the same family; very, very different approaches. And again, Charleston, you have the American College of Building Arts, where you can get a master, become a master of blacksmithing or a master of plaster. So, you have these old homes in Charleston that have this incredible resource to reproduce. If the tile work on the ceiling is collapsing, they can go and reproduce it, we're training these master builders to uphold all these beautiful properties and preserve them. The College of Charleston has a historic preservation program, and they've been really involved with the Union Pier project, which is where there's this whole giant section of downtown that now is going to be developed, and we want to make sure to get that right. We have the Clemson Design Center, which you can get a master's of preservation there. So, you have all these groups that are focused on it and on preserving it.
(41:10):And then in Savannah, you have an art school, and it's super different. And I feel like even though there's not a right or wrong way, like you said, it's just all different approaches. And with the college in Savannah being an art school, they're always going to be pushing boundaries. That's what artists do, they push boundaries. How can we look at this differently? How can we approach something in a new way? And that's just so exciting. And so their color palette and what they did with the students, it was just so interesting because it was really a completely different look at color in the environment. So, it was fun.
Sue Wadden (41:53):It was fun. And I would say I have so many questions building. So, if you go to a new city, say you're walking through New Orleans, how do you start to build a color palette that speaks to the regionality of a place? How do you even start?
Amy Milani (42:07):I think looking for pattern. So, when you have an identity, it's something that you're doing over and over and over again. It's something that defines who you are. So, it has to be a pattern. And good design, I feel like has repetition. So, if there's something that's well done, it's going to be done again. And neighbors are going to copy neighbors, and eventually it becomes a look. And that city-
Sue Wadden (42:33):So true.
Amy Milani (42:33):You know what I mean?
Sue Wadden (42:33):Yeah.
Amy Milani (42:34):When you're in downtown and you're like, "Wow, they did that really well, I want to do that." And whether it's with color or the form itself, you start to develop this pattern. And once the pattern is recognizable and you can be like, "Oh, that looks like New Orleans." You have that little bit of a trigger, that looks like a New Orleans palette. But yeah, looking at if you were…
(42:57):I think that the one thing we haven't spoken on yet is the light, regional light. One of the things was so interesting to me, because living in different parts of the country as well, I lived in Florida first working for Sherwin and then moved up a little more north of there. And I thought, "Well, the colors are going to be the same. I'm so familiar with..." Oh my gosh, just a short drive up the highway made such a difference. And it was the same time zone, same, if you will, like a beach, coastal situation, but what a different look. And obviously, a lot of it is due to light. And I think designers all know that we all see color through light. We have to test colors in light, and that's what makes color scary, because if it wasn't for light, we would know what we were doing. But we have to always have that open mind.
(43:49):So, the light in New Orleans and the geography and the way that... And there's just so many factors to it that make it unique. But yeah, looking at those patterns, identifying patterns in the environment, and that's how you start pulling that palette together, because you want to honor those patterns and recognize those patterns. And it doesn't need to be... Some of them could be super obvious, like when we did the Colors of Savannah, some of those things were very literal, like a brick color that was used, this brick was used, you could do that as a building material. But some of it was abstract, you know what I mean? Which I thought was really interesting as well.
Sue Wadden (44:29):We can talk about that too a little bit, because I would think that based on the cities that you've even just lived in, there had to be a flavor and an essence for each of those cities that really informed the color decision. European color is very different than South Florida, which is different than New Orleans, which is different than Charleston, even. Charleston, I would argue, is less of a Southern color palette and more of a Northeastern palette, because it's so rooted in our historical roots. So, talk about that a little bit, maybe just quickly.
Amy Milani (44:58):Yeah, I definitely... You can see it. But I think the thing that's interesting too is over time, it's like there is that tradition there, but then the meaning can get lost. Where do these colors come from anyway? If so much time has gone by and no one is really telling that story-
Sue Wadden (45:21):It's just a color. Agreed.
Amy Milani (45:22):It's just a color, and we don't really know why everybody uses it. But as you know, the popular color in Charleston, the haint blue that's used on the ceiling, which we know exactly where that came from, we know exactly where that tradition started. And whether or not it was accurate or not, we know it is a tradition.
Sue Wadden (45:44):And we've adopted it. People paint those colors in the North, too. Talk about haint blue, tell that story, for those that don't know.
Amy Milani (45:51):So, haint blue is a color that is associated with the Gullah-Geechee culture, which are the descendants, the African different cultures that came to the Lowcountry area, so Georgia, South Carolina, and were enslaved. And some of it, again, the thing that you have to remember about some of these stories is it's a mixture of... Because these are oral tradition, so you're retelling things. But so we've been told that these colors came from the protection of the household from haints, which are spirits, and that the spirits would be fooled by the color choices, which I think is just such a wonderful idea, that color would be so powerful as to fool a spirit and not harm the family.
(46:46):Now, one of the things I feel is so interesting about that, and one of the reasons why I think that endures, is because the idea of protecting a family is a beautiful thing. So, yes, we have this idea of where it came from and so on and so forth, but what more could anybody want than have a color protecting their family? I think it's a beautiful way of looking at that tradition. And I think that's one of the reasons why it's very nostalgic and very heartwarming to people in the South, because of that idea of protection.
Sue Wadden (47:24):For those that don't know, haint is H-A-I-N-T, haint blue, and it's a soft, dreamy blue. It's probably very particular in Charleston, but people have adopted it in different ways, and it's almost like a really sky blue. So, the idea was a spirit would come to your front door, and they would be fooled by the sky color on the ceiling of your porch, and then just release and not come into the home. So, you're right, the oral tradition of that color is so romantic. It's a beautiful way to also paint your porch-
Amy Milani (47:53):It is, I know.
Sue Wadden (47:53):... and make it look gorgeous, too, yes.
Amy Milani (47:56):Well, and you brought up a good point. So, when you look at the traditional color, one of the colors that we've identified I think in our palette is Meandering Blue, and it is bright. So then I think, well, it could be a Caribbean influence. To be a more true bright turquoise, teal color, it would be something that's associated with Caribbean. But I also feel like when I've done porch ceilings, which I've done a lot of them, it depends on the light. So, if you think of traditional porch ceilings being deeper, and the light is not coming under there as much, then you would need a brighter color to see it, to have that self-lit quality, that intensity that would bring out the blue.
(48:47):So, the first thing I'm doing when I'm designing is looking at how much light is going into that porch, and then you have to adjust the haint blue for that amount of light. And so the taller the porch, the more contemporary, it'd have to be barely there, because you don't need a lot of color on the ceiling. And sometimes when you see it, there are some properties where I feel like the teal on the ceiling is so bright, that's the first thing you look at, and that wouldn't necessarily have been the point of it, originally. So, getting that right, and I don't think there's anything wrong with tweaking it to the light that's under there, or the house siding colors, the front door color, and making sure the haint works with that.
Sue Wadden (49:28):Exactly. Well, and that's just probably one example in 10,000 examples of great colors used in history. So, talk about something, I have just a couple more questions. Do you have an example of how a thoughtful color choice helped bridge the gap between past and present? So again, we want to bring this idea of historic color into today. So, can you think of an example of past and present coming together?
Amy Milani (49:52):I remember a project in downtown Charleston, just north of the city center, that was Arts and Crafts style, and they had beautiful tile, custom, authentic artesian tile, and they wanted to preserve it. Again, this was a goal of the homeowner. You've bought a property, you want to preserve these things. And then they wanted to use bright white on the trim. And as you know, bright white is very popular right now.
Sue Wadden (50:17):It is. Definitely.
Amy Milani (50:19):And it's one of those things that I had to very carefully have a conversation with the owner about how we need to the right thing for this tile, and we need to quiet down that white a little bit and work from the tile itself. So, just looking at the lightest color in that tile and matching it, which ended up being a light gray instead of a white white. It just had that hint of light gray in it to soften it a little bit, which often happens in historic properties. You just don't see that really bright white.
Sue Wadden (50:53):Yeah, that clarity. It's literally aged by time, so it's very rare to find some crisp, crisp white examples in a home. Completely agree.
Amy Milani (51:01):And it does a disadvantage, right? When you're putting that bright white against a tile, it'll make the tile look dingy, it'll make that color actually... Because all colors interact with each other, so when you have that... So, just softening that white a little bit made the tile look fresh and clean and beautiful. It brought out the beauty. It wasn't competing with it, it wasn't making it look dingy in comparison to the bright white. And the homeowner was so happy because they had chosen to preserve those tiles, that's what they wanted. And it ended up being gorgeous, and not something where they painted it white and then had to repaint it because it was too harsh.
(51:37):And I've heard that over and over and over with our white, white, whites, that once we're in them, white, bright white has no color in it. So, you have nothing there to build on, to interact with, to harmonize with. There's nothing. And so yeah, it goes with everything, but I don't know if that's... You know what I mean? We like to see reactions. That's actually what beauty is, is the reaction of color against color. So, when you want to make those old tiles look their best, you got to let them be the star of the room, and maybe compromise some of that.
(52:12):But when you speak of bringing the old things forward, I mean, all styles, as you know, come back again. And it's like the color drenching thing. It was done before, that's not new. So, luckily, we've got a really wonderful way to... We can color drench, and color drenching is perfect for historic homes because again, then you're-
Sue Wadden (52:32):Oh, looks amazing.
Amy Milani (52:33):... not drawing attention, unless you want to draw attention to the trim. But if you don't, then that's a nice way to adapt to it. But I feel like we have a lot of choices now with our modern taste, I think, to work with. We can use white, as I said, but it just needs to be a white that harmonizes with the pine wood floor, the brick that's there.
Sue Wadden (52:56):The light coming in from outside, your exposure on where your light's coming from.
Amy Milani (53:00):Where you are. Exactly.
Sue Wadden (53:03):That's a big... All considerations. Do you think there's any historic colors that are making a comeback?
Amy Milani (53:08):Yeah. So, I am very excited because Charleston is really leaning into pink.
Sue Wadden (53:15):Ooh, I love that.
Amy Milani (53:16):Pink has... It's absolutely... Yeah. So, I was thinking about this the other day. So, in history, so Madame Pompadour of the 1700s in the French court, she was a big style influencer, and she's the one that said, "I love pink and everything has to be pink." So, all of her stuff was pink. And interestingly enough, that was the same time period that Charleston, some of the original buildings were built. So, I'm curious about that. We do have a French Quarter, and we have a Huguenot church that's pink. I don't know if they were originally pink, but I think this idea of pink and Frenchness and all of that is tied together, and I just can't even tell you. We see pink on shutters now, pink on exteriors, doors. It's just being used over and over again.
(54:09):And I do think, when I was telling you about the color work I did in Florida versus South Carolina, there's colors that I don't use anymore in Charleston because they may lean pink. And I do feel like there's a light, there's an aspect of light in Charleston, if you ever go on the marsh, you see this beautiful green, this intensity, this beautiful, rich green, and then you have this pink in the sky, and it's almost like Charleston, everything there can be cast in pink. Do you know what I mean?
Sue Wadden (54:38):Yes.
Amy Milani (54:38):Because of the light. So, you're leaning into that idea of let's just add a little pink to everything and make life better. It's a wonderful... And I love it because I just feel like, where else do you see a pink church? It's just a wonderful, accepted color, that I think goes back to the French, hopefully, possibly.
(54:58):There's another story of Rainbow Row, where Rainbow Row was created in the '30s because it was run down and dilapidated. Surprisingly, that area had been neglected. And so there was a movement to start preserving buildings in Charleston, and they selected pink to start restoring those homes in the French Quarter, and that's how Rainbow Row started. And then the pastels just broadened, and now they're-
Sue Wadden (55:26):Just came from there.
Amy Milani (55:28):Yep. Mm-hmm.
Sue Wadden (55:28):Yes. And I would say, from my perspective, I think green is also having a similar moment, though I think Charleston Green is always really important for the fiber of that city. The greens in general are really taking on aspects of neutrals in a bigger, better way than we've ever seen. So, I show up for that in my green sweater. I love-
Amy Milani (55:47):I know, right? Happy St. after the Patrick's, yeah.
Sue Wadden (55:52):Well, you've had a really robust, obviously, experience with color all over the globe. Is there a city, is there a palette that you love the most? Without making the other cities feel bad.
Amy Milani (56:04):Well, yeah, it's hard because I feel, again, I'm like a mom without a favorite child. You know what I mean? I'm trying to think across all the places.
Sue Wadden (56:21):It's hard. I get-
Amy Milani (56:22):It is hard. I feel like I really love... The Southwest, which was my original study, I just felt like you feel like you're on another planet when you're there.
Sue Wadden (56:35):I agree.
Amy Milani (56:35):It's definitely an interesting... The warmth, and you're very attached to the land. In Charleston, the pinks and all of that, you do have that connection, that nowhere else in the country, I feel like, do you have that sense of the land like you do in the Southwest.
Sue Wadden (56:52):Absolutely couldn't agree more. Those are my favorite colors.
Amy Milani (56:55):Very. And I think that that earth and sky combination is truly beautiful. And it's such an incredible area, where you have so many cultures having impact on the design there, and it's just a beautiful expression of cultures coming together to produce something better than anywhere else, and very distinct and such a great example of that. Because sometimes I feel like in Charleston too, there's a lot of influences from Europe, so I cannot pick a favorite-
Sue Wadden (57:28):You can't pick a favorite.
Amy Milani (57:28):... once I start thinking about it, you know?
Sue Wadden (57:29):So, obviously we could go on forever and ever, but if listeners want to find more about you or the work you've done, how can they find you?
Amy Milani (57:35):Sure. I'm on Instagram. Feel free to DM me @dr.a.milani, M-I-L-A-N-I. And be happy to chat with anyone and connect with anyone interested in talking more about preservation, color, any things that we've discussed today.
Sue Wadden (57:52):I love it. And talk a little bit... We haven't touched on it in everything we've covered, but you're a designer account executive. So, in your current role at Sherwin-Williams, talk about how you help designers.
Amy Milani (58:03):Yeah, so it's been wonderful to support designers in the field. So, I have just such a great territory, and I-
Sue Wadden (58:10):You do.
Amy Milani (58:11):... get to work with designers doing some really exciting stuff. I feel like the coastal influence of the Southeast is really important on design, the aesthetic that's been developed here. And I really enjoy going out and meeting other designers, and seeing how they're working with our colors and our products, and making sure that they have everything they need from us. And continuing, I think one of my main roles is to inspire, and I love connecting and hearing about where they've been and where their inspiration's coming from, and just enjoying getting to know other viewpoints. And it's been a wonderful experience.
Sue Wadden (58:49):We are really lucky to have you. So, thanks for sharing your time here today on Colormixology, but on your day-to-day, helping our designers who we love and are very close to our heart. So, thanks, Amy.
Amy Milani (59:01):Yeah, thank you, Sue.
Sue Wadden (59:07):Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this conversation, please consider subscribing, leaving us a review, and telling the other design and color-curious people in your life about Colormixology. Tune in next time as we continue to explore the wide world of color and design. See you next time on Colormixology.