Jason Phillips (01:09): Yep.  

Sue Wadden (01:09): ... um, your career so far, um, and what the Phillips Collection is all about? 

Jason Phillips (01:14): Absolutely. I'll keep this part short, but it is an interesting story. So, we're a family business, as you mentioned. I'm technically third generation, and I just took over as CEO. My grandparents helped launch the business with my parents. That's a whole other story, but Mom and Dad, Mark and Julie Phillips, really founded Phillips Collection with a love of discovery and design and traveling the world. And I grew up traveling to Asia and Mexico and Europe with them. Coming to High Point, we're from New York originally, so coming to High Point, North Carolina twice a year as a kid, not really knowing what was going on, but knowing that we had a showroom, knowing that there was all this buzz.  (01:53): Fast-forward, uh, a few years, I studied industrial design at university and, um, met my wife, then girlfriend at the time, at University of Michigan, and we moved down to North Carolina in 2001. You know, took a risk to joining the family business risk/reward. It's, it's sort of these, this unav- I always knew it was an unavoidable reality, but a, such a gift to join a dynamic company where travel and design and, and blazing our own path was always so important to us. So we're, I've been 20 years, uh, involved full-time with the company, just took over, but Dad, uh, has stepped into a chairman role. And he and I are planning our next trip to the Philippines as we speak. So he's still very much involved and, um, I've been very fortunate to be a student of both my parents, but my father, particularly, as this visionary in the industry and just feel really grateful and fortunate to have him as my mentor.  

Sue Wadden (02:49): Well, the furniture business and I'm, I'm sure not a lot of people outside of the industry understand how unique it is. Um, so it has been a great pleasure of mine over the last 10 years kind of learning about, um, what makes manufacturing furniture so, so unique. Um, and you know, there's a, there's a lot of competition out there and so I think-  

Jason Phillips (03:07): Yeah.  

Sue Wadden (03:07): ... it's really, um, what you guys have done as a corporation to be unique in the industry is really notable. So your company is known for eco-conscious design, which of course is like table stakes now. Everybody in design is focused on sustainability. So talk a little bit about your focus, um, on sustainable, sustainability in this industry and how is that evolving?  

Jason Phillips (03:27): I love that it's table stakes. I mean, so well said. You have to, we all have to be aware that the consumer is paying attention and making his and her decision on who they shop with based on not just the product and the price and the warranty, but the story behind the brand. So transparency has always been important to us, but it, but it's now required of every company. Um, we work with nature as our palette of inspiration, both, you know, in the materials and the motifs. So it's been timeless to be able to work with nature, but there's also an importance to how we source our woods, what kinds of finishes we put on it. The story that we tell, our tagline is every piece of conversation. So there has to be an interesting story about why we came up with something, why the material, why the craftsman community we worked with has a unique story, and we try to communicate that.  (04:22): So because the stakes are now higher and the transparency is required, we try to go one step further. And, and I think this question might come up later even, but circularity, um, really closing that loop. So we can source something in a sustainable way. We should build it in a way that lasts 'cause there's sustainability in something that can be a multi-generational piece that you don't have to replace that doesn't fall apart on you. But what happens at the end of that life cycle if or when somebody needs to get rid of something? Is it able to be, to biodegrade? Is it able to go into a landfill? Um, or are there ways that we can recollect it and repurpose it? So we're always thinking about what that next step is, which is closing that loop.  

Sue Wadden (05:05): Do you have, like, a vision for that? Is that something that you promote and talk about? Like that idea of circularity, that's really, um, very important.  

Jason Phillips (05:13): Yes.  

Sue Wadden (05:14): So how, how can people find out more information on your, you know, your commitment to circularity?  

Jason Phillips (05:20): Yeah, that is coming.  

Sue Wadden (05:21): Okay.  

Jason Phillips (05:22): We should certainly create, 'cause we already have things in motion, so you're even inspiring me now to create a microsite and a landing page for this. The last loop is, is bringing product back to us when necessary. I'm trying to remember which major retailer does this really well. I wanna say it's West Elm, perhaps, but I could be wrong, um, where they have a program where they will pick up your piece even after 10 years and repurpose it. That would be amazing. We have some very heavy product. We have pieces of wood that weigh 700 pounds as dining tables. It's quite hard to pick up. But most importantly, creating something timeless that's well-made, I think is one of the most significant steps a company can take in sustainability.  (06:05): So there's, and, and there's many levels to sustainability. There are companies that might work with plastics, um, which are not inherently sustainable, even if you're talking about recycled plastics. But if you can make it last, if you can improve your packaging, be sustainable there, if you can in your facilities use LED lighting. We even now have two new projects going on. One just finished, which is motion-activated lighting throughout our facilities. So we already went through a decade ago a major effort to redo all of our lighting to be LED, which is low energy. And now the next step was to have the lights only turn on when it detects motion. So they're actually only on 30% of the time.  (06:43): The other project is a major solar farm that we're just now finishing on our property. So we're right off the highway, Business 85 here in High Point, and people will see a giant solar array. So we're not only gonna be carbon neutral, we're gonna be net positive and actually be able to sell energy back to the grid.  

Sue Wadden (07:01): Oh, that's fantastic. Well, one of these days when I'm down there, I'd love to come and see you and take a tour. I don't know-  

Jason Phillips (07:06): Yeah.  

Sue Wadden (07:06): ... do you do that ever?  

Jason Phillips (07:07): Always. We would love to. And for any listeners out there that are interested that find themselves in the area, just pop in. Um, you know, a heads-up is sometimes helpful, but we love when people walk in. Sometimes the public walks in and we're a to-the-trade company.  

Sue Wadden (07:19): Right, right (laughs).  

Jason Phillips (07:20): They say, "Where am I? And can I get a tour?" And we say, "Well, you might need to work with a designer if you wanna buy something, but we're happy to give you a tour."  

Sue Wadden (07:26): Yes.  

Jason Phillips (07:27): And we have five warehouses here in High Point, about 400,000 square feet of storage, of incredible one of a kinds. Um, we have one warehouse that's nearly 200,000 feet that's just filled with incredible wood treasures, um, all responsibly reclaimed. I mean, each piece bigger than the next, 30-foot-long live-edge tables and-  

Sue Wadden (07:48): Oh, cool.  

Jason Phillips (07:48): ... sculptures made out of discarded roots. It's incredible.  

Sue Wadden (07:52): So, okay, let's go back to the legacy. So third generation. Um, how did Phillips Corporation start? Like, what did the furniture look like? Can you describe kind of where it started and where you are now?  

Jason Phillips (08:01): Yes. Um, we were a company of discovery. So, and we've become a company of design. So I can walk you through that. Discovery was more going around the world, finding teak wood chests, carved panels, Ming style coffee tables. And some of our first customers were Crate & Barrel. We would sell Macy's and Bloomingdale's and ABC Carpet & Home in New York City. But these were collected treasures, just sourcing incredible objects that Mom and Dad would find around the world that wasn't yet exposed to the American market. And they had this era of just exposing the world to incredible designs that had existed sometimes for, for centuries overseas to the American consumer. And they rode that wave for a while. And then in the year 2000, we met a Mexican artist named Yuri Zatarain, who we had 10 incredible years with. And he transformed us from a company of discovery to a company of design.  (08:57): He did, at the time, large-scale ceramics out of Mexico, very primitive motifs, but presented them in a very gallery-like feel. So we went from being a company that could be described as more traditional transitional, um, into uber-contemporary sort of overnight. It was a major shift. It attracted an entire new clientele, people that wanted something and appreciated something different and unique and something that really stopped you in your tracks. I mean, my dad, I, I feel like people often accuse us of sounding like the same person. It's pretty much me just sounding like him. But he said a Phillips piece around this time should, you know, you can buy a lamp and every day you come home and you turn your light on and it functions. Or you can buy a lamp from Phillips collection and every day you just go, "Ah." You know, that's-  

Sue Wadden (09:43): (laughs).  

Jason Phillips (09:44): It's the stop you in your tracks idea, which is always, you know, we, we like to be very honest about where we are in the marketplace. We've been stigmatized in a good way of, I need that one Phillips piece to finish my project. And we wanna capture more than just one piece. So we're, our constant, um, opportunity, let's call it, is how do we capture more of the home? And that's sort of what we're working on now. How do we become maybe not whole home, 'cause that's a big change to start doing upholstery and-  

Sue Wadden (10:14): Yep.  

Jason Phillips (10:14): ... major lighting collections, but to do more of the home. So what's a bookcase from Phillips look like? What's a floor lamp? What's a chandelier? We've never had a chandelier.  

Sue Wadden (10:22): Oh, great.  

Jason Phillips (10:22): We have customers that are ready for that. So we're actively designing into what's next from us.  

Sue Wadden (10:28): Well, we'll talk a little bit more about the collections-  

Jason Phillips (10:31): Yeah.  

Sue Wadden (10:31): ... but talk about the travel. So everybody always asks, where do you get your inspiration? They ask me that for color. Um, so I would ask you the same question. What do you see when you're out there that really is moving you now?  

Jason Phillips (10:41): Yeah, we love scale and we love nature. And we have been studying, uh, a pioneering research called science and design, which is really starting to tie how the brain connects to certain designs, how design can improve your life through the types of finishes you're using. Obviously, low VOC finishes that you put on product improve your health, but scientists at Johns Hopkins have learned that wood grain in a room lowers your resting heart rate by two beats per minute. I mean, that's powerful. And we're selling wood products so we can start, it's never about exploiting this, it's about geeking out on the research.  (11:17): So what inspires us, of course, like anybody says, and I subscribe to this, you know, traveling, seeing the world, seeing architecture, seeing fashion, seeing what comes up on the Colormix Forecast that we love relying on.  

Sue Wadden (11:31): Thank you (laughs).  

Jason Phillips (11:32): Um, we, we rely so mu- Yeah, that, there's a plug. Um-  

Sue Wadden (11:34): (laughs).  

Jason Phillips (11:35): But, but it's true. We rely so much on what's happening around the world and then understanding our own DNA is very important. I think some companies sometimes get a little lost, um, maybe get pigeonholed into a certain look. We've always been known for bringing exciting products to market, which really gives us a wide lens, but then we're very narrow on materials. So wood, metal, glass, stone are sort of the materials we work with and we love working with rough, uncut, unapologetic hunks of nature.  (12:11): So what inspires me is a rock in a field that has a beautiful texture to it that I know we can purchase, ship to the Philippines, create a mold of it, and dress in fashion colors. I mean, it's something other companies just don't have the wherewithal to do or the desire to do. And, um, it's our niche in the market. So we're always thinking, okay, we're looking at something that's a coffee table. How would that look as a mirror on the wall if we cut a hole into it? And, and it's just a different way of thinking. Um-  

Sue Wadden (12:39): I have to believe that your industrial design background helps with that as well, right? Like you're, you're never, uh, designers often solve problems all the time. That's what we do, right? So you take a problem and you put a different spin on it and it comes out something else, which is great.  

Jason Phillips (12:54): Yeah, I loved my degree. Industrial design really teaches you how to work on a, on a project. You have a, you have a, a task, a, a, a problem to solve, and you work your way through it, not only through ideation and prototyping, but through, um, being able to communicate your ideas visually to the, to the stakeholders to be able to execute something. And, and using research, it's design plus research, plus a bit of engineering. I'm not gonna glorify it. I think fine art, uh, you know, if I studied fine art, that would've been equally beneficial.  (13:27): I am not my father, as close as I am to my father. He ha- he is not a designer. He's a curator. He's got this incredible curator's eye and a vision for what could be. That's not something you can learn in a classroom. That's something that I'm still, now that I'm taking the reins of the company, realizing it's gonna be five, 10 years before my own brand voice and influence arrives. But it's an exciting moment. And all the while I wanna make sure the company is, you know, it's what our, what we've built is carried on.  

Sue Wadden (13:59): Absolutely. Oh, it's just a, it's an amazing story. So, um, on this inspiration front, and then I'll close that loop.  

Jason Phillips (14:05): Yeah.  

Sue Wadden (14:05): What's like, one of the most favorite things that you found out there and where in the world?  

Jason Phillips (14:09): Yeah, I-  

Sue Wadden (14:09): I've seen some video guys that you guys have produced that are pretty cool. So-  

Jason Phillips (14:13): Yeah, I mean, we, uh, I, I can go in many different directions. We love what happens to a piece of wood when you play around with unique processes. So we can electrocute wood and it creates these fractal patterns, almost like lightning on the wood. It's an incredible technique. And we call that our lightning collection.  

Sue Wadden (14:31): Wow.  

Jason Phillips (14:32): So that's pretty wild. Um, we also use the sun. We, we put, um, mineral spirits on the wood and leave it out in the sun in Thailand at the equator for six months. And it develops this incredible raw bleach effect that's become quite popular.  

Sue Wadden (14:48): Do you have a lab, like a creative lab to come and pull these things together? Like, who would've ever thought about electrocuting wood? That's fascinating.  

Jason Phillips (14:55): Well, you know what, it is a lab, but probably not the way we would visualize a lab.  

Sue Wadden (14:59): (laughs).  

Jason Phillips (14:59): This is sort of like maybe a shed, um, in a field, but it is a lab by all intents and purposes. So yes, we have, we have both our own in-house team that creates designs. We work with some outside designers, but we also lean on the factories we work with a lot. So we don't own these factories. We partner with them and they're multi-generational woodworkers or metal workers. And we're constantly... They have learned, whether we tell them or not, that we like interesting, unique, new. So some of them need, we kind of need to twist their arm to push the envelope on what they're doing. But the ones that we've had real success with are constantly serving us up, "Hey, I electrocuted this piece of wood, what do you think?"  

Sue Wadden (15:38): (laughs).  

Jason Phillips (15:39): And we're like, "We love it. We'll take a hundred." Oversimplifying it, but it's, it's a wonderful world we live in where we get to kind of experiment with things almost as if we're fine artists. But we've got this business foundation, this, this machine, which is Phillips Collection, which allows us to purchase the quantities required to bring the price points down, to create efficiencies in production. We know how to pack this stuff, we know how to bring it in. Um, I spoke earlier about unapologetic pieces of nature. So we have a few different categories. Fully repeatable furniture, which is obvious. That's what kind of the industry expects where every coffee table's gonna look the same.  

Sue Wadden (16:14): Consistent, right.  

Jason Phillips (16:15): We have one-of-a-kind pieces where no two pieces are alike. And then we have this wonderful world in the middle that a lot of people don't deal with, which is some of a kind. So coffee tables that are made from slices, cross sections of a tree trunk, um, where each one's gonna have different grain characters. Some will have cracks and splits, but we're able to offer it as this repeatable item that, um, uh, there are many reasons why that's good. It allows us to offer our clients something that feels a little personalized, um, without having to go all the way to one-of-a-kind.  (16:48): But we have this process here where product comes in and if they are, if there is variance to a certain degree, we photograph every single piece. We put every single piece online, great technology that backs us up so that when you are shopping for your next coffee table from us, you get the exact one you saw in that photo. And it allows us to go back to our factories and we're able to say yes to more product from them. We don't reject because there's variance, which helps their business.  

Sue Wadden (17:13): Which is really helpful. That's-  

Jason Phillips (17:14): Yeah.  

Sue Wadden (17:14): ... that's a great point to make. So this, your products are only available to the trade. Uh-  

Jason Phillips (17:19): Yes.  

Sue Wadden (17:20): Which, you know, talk about that relationship between a furniture manufacturer and your designers and the dealers that you work with. What's that like?  

Jason Phillips (17:26): Yeah, we sell to, um, as you said, dealers, so fine furniture stores around the country and world, but our core customer is an interior designer, mainly interior designers working with a consumer, putting it in their home, but also designers for hotels and restaurants and commercial properties. They're able to visit us, you know, how, how do we acquire a customer? They see us at a trade show. We have showrooms around the country. We, we go to the hotel shows, uh, but we also have a great web presence and social media, so they can land on our website and set up an account that way. And they get great pricing.  (18:02): So a consumer who could shop us on Wayfair, Perigold, many other e-comm sites, and get a great price, um, always going through a designer is gonna be the best way for them to access us at a great price. And these designers do us a great service. They tell our story in a way that a product on just a retail shelf can't be told. They also do a lot of damage control if a product arrives and it's not the right scale, it's not an immediate return. So we lean on these designers and educate them on who we are as a brand and why our product is special and unique. And they're really almost an extension of us. Uh, they're almost our salespeople in the field, and we have thousands of these designers buying from us.  

Sue Wadden (18:41): That's a really good point. And I think you could make the case that that's one of the benefits of doing, um, a to-the-trade program, right? Like that-  

Jason Phillips (18:49): Yep.  

Sue Wadden (18:49): ... your ambassadors almost. But what are some of the challenges? Is it just about scale that you're, you know, you're not selling to everybody, it's, it's a pretty niche market?  

Jason Phillips (18:58): Yes. I think, I think the, our market penetration has always been a challenge, but an opportunity. There's always this, this, um, itch we have to go a little mainstream. Whenever a product sneaks into our line that's a bit more pedestrian, it sells like crazy, but we have to preserve our uniqueness in the market. Um, we also find a challenge by not being whole home. It's hard to paint what Phillips looks like in your traditional home or your, perhaps, mountain home on a ski resort lodge. Um, what does it look like in a Miami condo? There's all these different styles that people have and how do you position your brand?  (19:40): And I think leaning on technology and AI and being able to drop our product into different settings to help people realize how they could use it, um, that's where the designer really comes in and helps us. So I've always described our product as almost the building blocks, the, the Lego pieces of somebody's project. So we present dimensional wall art, uh, accent furniture, sculpture, all different categories to our customers, but they really use it in a way that they see fit. And it allows our customers to be very creative.  

Sue Wadden (20:10): Yes. Which you would say your, your customers are the designers and then their clients are obviously the end u- user where you're placing it.  

Jason Phillips (20:17): Yes.  

Sue Wadden (20:17): Um, so is, are there any tips? Like, I think you talked about it a little bit, that if, um, one of our listeners wants to work with a designer or they wanna, um, acquire the, a piece from the Phillips Collection.  

Jason Phillips (20:28): Yeah.  

Sue Wadden (20:29): How should they start that? Is there an easy way to do that?  

Jason Phillips (20:31): Consumers can go to our website, Phillipscollection.com, and they can browse and they can go to find a designer, find a dealer. We have a directory. It's quite accessible to be able to start doing business with us. Just do a Google search of Phillips Collection. You'll find e-commerce partners you can buy from. But we do always encourage somebody to go through a designer. It both helps with pricing and helps them understand the full breadth of the collection.  

Sue Wadden (20:54): That's really helpful. I know, um, I'm gonna definitely do that when we get off this call.  

Jason Phillips (20:57): OH, nice.  

Sue Wadden (20:58): Um, because I've seen your pieces in person, but I've never checked out your website. So let's move a little bit into the trend space and the color space. My favorite topic.  

Jason Phillips (21:05): Yeah. Yeah.  

Sue Wadden (21:05): Um, so what are some of the trends your team, um, or customers are really embracing right now?  

Jason Phillips (21:10): Yeah. I'll start with what the industry's moved away from, which is grays and sharp lines. It's a gift and a curse. We have a lot of gray product in, in inventory-  

Sue Wadden (21:19): (laughs).  

Jason Phillips (21:21): ... but I'm a glass half full kind of person. So we've been converting a lot of the gray into other finishes. We can strip the gray finish off of our wood product and, and we've gotten to this raw finish. So one of the trends is going lighter. I think people are moving towards softer, richer tones. So in terms of the shape of a product, no hard edges. So we're all designing very, um, smoothed radiuses on our pieces. No sharp edges, pieces that just feel a little more comfortable and moving away from high gloss, high impact to these richer, deeper hues.  (21:57): So on one end we're going with bleached wood tones. It's, it's very light and airy and, but everything feels light. And then on the other end, it's a richness to finish, so deep browns. Um, again, we're working a lot with nature as our palette, so it's oftentimes the color of the paint on the wall that allows us to be a little bold and vibrant. So moving away from glossy white, glossy black, gray into, you know, we don't play too much with color in our products, but we have a bit of pastel happening, but really moving into richer finishes is the best way to describe it.  

Sue Wadden (22:34): That's awesome that you said that. So our, by the time this airs, our, our color forecast will be out into the universe and one of the, uh, collections that we're talking about is a palette of pastels. And it's sort of this almost like an analogous color scheme. It's blues and greens and purples, like soft lavenders.  

Jason Phillips (22:49): Yeah.  

Sue Wadden (22:50): Um, and it's very, very, it can look very contemporary. It doesn't look sweet. Um, it can look almost industrial, which I think is really, really interesting.  

Jason Phillips (22:59): Yes.  

Sue Wadden (22:59): And it's a nice change from white, um, and, you know, kind of black, right? Like I'm done with the high-lows. I love that woods and browns. We've been forecasting browns, um, coming back in a big way for a couple seasons, and it's finally really here, which is really good to see.  

Jason Phillips (23:13): Yes.  

Sue Wadden (23:14): So I think that's interesting. And it's impacting kitchen design. Uh, we're starting to see for the first time in probably six or seven years, wood cabinets coming back in, which is, you know, stained cabinets versus just the white kitchen.  

Jason Phillips (23:25): Yes.  

Sue Wadden (23:25): White on white on white or white on gray. Uh, that's a really nice change to see. Again, you're getting this connection. We've talked about nature and the colors of nature coming in, but it's really, it's happening now. And you touched on it a little bit, and I'm kind of fascinated with this topic of neuroaesthetics.  

Jason Phillips (23:39): Yes.  

Sue Wadden (23:41): So that's how the brain connects with design-  

Jason Phillips (23:43): Yep.  

Sue Wadden (23:44): ... to create a human response that's positive. So like you said, you, you can track the biorhythms that people feel when they look at a piece of wood furniture and it has, it brings a positive impact. Well, color can do that as well. So I love that intersection, um, and that conversation. And then that's a focus of your business, um, which, you know, warms my heart. That's amazing.  

Jason Phillips (24:03): Yeah.  

Sue Wadden (24:03): Um, versus just trying to put furniture out there that will appeal to everybody.  

Jason Phillips (24:08): We have to... Yeah. So well said on, on many fronts. And it's obvious that you've been a student of neuroaesthetics, the, just the way you rattled that off. You hit the nail on the head.  

Sue Wadden (24:16): (laughs).  

Jason Phillips (24:16): You can use it in two different ways. You know, the way a room makes you feel, you want it to calm you down when it's the bedroom. Or when you walk into a home, you're not, you know, you're met with a sense of warmth. But there are some rooms in the house that maybe should be a little bit more upbeat. Maybe the kitchen, um, is a place of entertainment these days. So maybe bold, going bolder there, more contrast there. Certainly our product going into a trendy restaurant is gonna have a certain motif. We have cast rhino heads. These are carved, you know, not, not-  

Sue Wadden (24:48): I've seen those.  

Jason Phillips (24:49): ... not sculpt, you know, these are sculpted. No, no rhinos harmed. Let me make sure I clai-  

Sue Wadden (24:53): Definitely make sure that.  

Jason Phillips (24:55): Like, in, in gold leaf, life-sized, that's not going into a home. That's specifically for high-impact spaces. But we're playing with bleached woods and stone-cast finishes that are very muted and, and they're very calming. Um, we have motifs inspired by a trip to Greece we did, um, five years ago, Cycladic art, taking just the, a brow or a, a nose as the only indication of a face. But somehow it makes this triangle that you're, it's imprinted on us as infants to be able to recognize mom's face. The two eyes and the mouth make a triangle. And you see this showing up in the way the facade of the Notre Dame is done. And it's just so fascinating why our eye is drawn to certain things.  (25:36): And also using, 3M has an eye tracking software that people can, you know, you can buy these glasses and it actually tracks where your eye goes. And using that to design our next catalog cover and where is the eye going, and are people paying too much attention to the wall color and not enough to our product? You know, these are important decisions we and other companies need to be leaning on the technology. AI is a big what if in our industry and we play with it. I'd like to think we're on the forefront of it, but we still don't know copyright, uh, you know, and the legal issues, you know. Can it be an, a design that we call ours if a computer generated it? But it's a great tool towards, and I don't think it's stealing anyone's jobs. Um, it's a great tool to use, whether it's, you know, copywriting tools or visualization tools to just help push our creativity as people.  

Sue Wadden (26:27): I agree 100%.  

Jason Phillips (26:29): Yeah. The, I think it all, it's all human centric and that's what I love about sustainability. That's what I love about supporting artists and communities. That's what I love about the circularity. When our customers are finished with a product or, or wanna get rid of it, what's that? How do you close that loop? And I think it's intentionality at all aspects. So if using Midjourney helps me come up with my next design and think about what an oversized Cycladic face on the wall looks like in a modern home, within 30 seconds, I have an incredible visualization that can help make my next decision.  

Sue Wadden (27:03): Exactly. It's, it's a, it's a tool for us to design, though I will say Midjourney-  

Jason Phillips (27:07): Yeah.  

Sue Wadden (27:07): ... I have not cracked the code on Midjourney. It, like, the prompts are too hard. There's other-  

Jason Phillips (27:12): Yeah.  

Sue Wadden (27:12): There's others out there that I like a little better that are a little easier. Um-  

Jason Phillips (27:15): Oh, what are you using?  

Sue Wadden (27:16): Well, I use ChatGPT, like the functionality-  

Jason Phillips (27:19): Yep.  

Sue Wadden (27:19): ... is very fast. Um, and I use that on my, like in my personal space. Um, and I, what's the other one I use? Not Perplexity. I use that for research and I use, I've used Claude, um, and I get good results. And again, I'm not, it's just like quick hits. Like I wanna look at that, or I wanna think about that, but-  

Jason Phillips (27:36): Yep.  

Sue Wadden (27:36): ... um, Midjourney is like the gold standard. I just have to crack the code (laughs).  

Jason Phillips (27:40): Well, I can, after this call, I can share a little info on it. 'Cause I, I think I've cracked it slightly and it's so powerful. But it's, again, it's whatever tools work for you best.  

Sue Wadden (27:49): Yes.  

Jason Phillips (27:50): So I haven't even played with Claude and I might even prefer it if I dove into it. So I would just encourage anybody on the fence, or really anybody should, should be downloading ChatGPT and playing around with it slightly if you're comfortable.  

Sue Wadden (28:02): Just play.  

Jason Phillips (28:03): Yeah, just play. I mean, I use it. I have a, I have a 10-year-old son and a three-year-old, and I'm using ChatGPT to tell us bedtime stories crafted around what we did that day. And you-  

Sue Wadden (28:12): That's-  

Jason Phillips (28:12): ... give it a little bit of prompt. And I've got, first it was giving me 10-minute stories and I said, "Make this a little shorter." I'm tired. I wanna go to bed.  

Sue Wadden (28:20): Exactly. I would like to-  

Jason Phillips (28:20): But then it's like two paragraphs and I'm out the door and I'm a hero. So thank you, ChatGPT.  

Sue Wadden (28:25): Thank you, ChatGPT.  

Jason Phillips (28:26): But, um, but it's just this wonderful thing. I'm like a magician to my kids with it. Um-  

Sue Wadden (28:30): It, it is, it is truly, um, it's gonna be fascinating to see where, where AI takes us, uh-  

Jason Phillips (28:37): Yeah.  

Sue Wadden (28:37): ... in the design space. And again, I, I totally agree. Don't be afraid of it. Designers out there, give it a try. See where, we'll see what you can come up with.  

Jason Phillips (28:43): It circles back to okay, ChatGPT, is it taking our voice as people? I don't think so. I think it's making us better, but using technology, let's talk about the good things, like how it could help you design healthier spaces. Um, and then cross-referencing that with the eye-tracking software and heart rate monitoring tools. Um, it, it all started for me, uh, I didn't connect the dot the time, when I was younger going to the dentist. And you're in the chair and you're looking up at the skylight. And I feel like they were the first to realize like, let's put a scene of like, the beach up there to calm you down. Like when are you more nervous than in the dentist chair?  

Sue Wadden (29:19): My dentist has Monet (laughs).  

Jason Phillips (29:19): Yeah. Yeah.  

Sue Wadden (29:21): That's so funny. Right.  

Jason Phillips (29:23): But, but that's why when you're in a room that feels comfortable... My favorite, so I talked science and design before. My favorite bit of research that I've learned from that is, um, called sanctuary and security. So, why do we love to be as humans, uh, on the second story of a home in a big bay window, looking out? Why is that such, like, a calming place to be? There's actually scientific proof that our caveman brain from 50,000 years ago, we were in caves at elevation. So in a cave, behind you is security. There's nothing behind you, but you're looking out at the entire environment and not seeing predators. So as much as we love the idea of a Central Park window overlooking, you know, beautiful Manhattan, there's actually something connecting to your brain that makes you say, "I feel safe and secure." So as people, we love to have security behind us and a big view in front of us.  (30:18): When designers and consumers start realizing this, and, and we're only on the forefront of this, this is gonna become common knowledge for people. When a, when a kid's designing their dorm room in 20 years, they're gonna already be thinking about things like this. Like, I want calming colors facing the exterior. You know, just things that that des- some designers, I think by accident, just have unlocked these formulas, but now we can put kind of math and science behind those findings.  

Sue Wadden (30:44): Do you have resources for that information that you could share? Or do you partner with anybody?  

Jason Phillips (30:49): Scienceindesign.com, Mike Peterson has been pioneering this with, uh, an architect out of Colorado, Don Ruggles. And, um, we're founding sponsors and people like Angela Harris of TRIO Environments in Denver as well, um, has completely, she runs a gigantic design firm, but has geeked out on this so much that she's gone back to school to get a PhD in neuroscience. Um, so there are a lot of players in this that are getting really excited. Um, circularity, um, I'm trying to remember the name of the person I'm working with. It'll come back in a moment, but, um, she is just based in New York City and is just exploring this in such a powerful way.  (31:31): So we have a soapbox at Phillips Collection. This is getting into like, where I think the most meaningful things we can do as a company. We can be sustainable ourselves, we can push the envelope ourselves, but if we can inspire other companies to do the same, that's where you really start building momentum. And it's happening. So, so the ball's already rolling. It's just who's gonna, who's gonna decide this week or this month, I'm gonna start diving into this a bit more.  

Sue Wadden (31:58): And start learning about it and just-  

Jason Phillips (31:59): Yeah.  

Sue Wadden (32:00): ... a little bit of information goes a long way. So I encourage listeners, uh, yeah, to check this out. So say that again. It's, um-  

Jason Phillips (32:05): Science-  

Sue Wadden (32:06): Science-  

Jason Phillips (32:06): ... indesign.com.  

Sue Wadden (32:08): Okay. Well that's fantastic.  

Jason Phillips (32:09): I plug this all the time 'cause it's super powerful. It will improve lives. There are some quotes that say interior designers have a greater ability to affect the health of people than doctors do. You go to a doctor when you're already sick sometimes.  

Sue Wadden (32:24): That is-  

Jason Phillips (32:25): If you can have... Ex- Exactly, like, let that sink in.  

Sue Wadden (32:27): 100% true. Yes.  

Jason Phillips (32:28): And it's true. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, we're not curing cancer as designers, but to design homes that make people live healthier a few percent a day has a profound... It's like compounding interest. It's the same idea. It's like if you're in a healthier room and your heart rate is lower every day and you're a bit calmer and you wake up to natural light and you don't have screens in your face, uh, you know, two hours before bed, all the, all these life hacks actually make a difference before you get to the doctor.  

Sue Wadden (32:56): And they do. It's physiological response. So your cortisol isn't flooding your system because of a stressful environment. You're waking up in a space where those levels are really down, um, where they should be. And that will long term, over the long term affect your life.  

Jason Phillips (33:08): Yeah.  

Sue Wadden (33:09): So that is it. That's gonna be the pull quote from this episode, I believe (laughs).  

Jason Phillips (33:12): Well, I still, I don't know how I'm gonna not look at my phone the second before I go to bed and the second I wake up.  

Sue Wadden (33:18): I know.  

Jason Phillips (33:18): I'll, I just take magnesium. That's my hack now.  

Sue Wadden (33:21): (laughs) Mine too. I absolutely do. That's hysterical.  

Jason Phillips (33:24): My God, I... More power to the people that can put that phone away. I have my phone upside down on my desk and like, I keep reaching for it. But-  

Sue Wadden (33:30): (Laughs) Well, hopefully-  

Jason Phillips (33:32): Look, knowing yourself is half the battle, right?  

Sue Wadden (33:34): It is. It is. And maybe you're-  

Jason Phillips (33:35): Yeah.  

Sue Wadden (33:35): ... you know, also listening to good podcasts or-  

Jason Phillips (33:37): Yes.  

Sue Wadden (33:38): ... or creating stories for your kids, right? It's like, there's a little intersection of human and technology that's important.  

Jason Phillips (33:44): Yeah. Yeah.  

Sue Wadden (33:44): So High Point, unbelievably, is just around the corner. We just wrapped April. Um, but October-  

Jason Phillips (33:49): Yeah.  

Sue Wadden (33:49): ... is a short time away from now. So are you guys doing anything interesting or sneak peeks that you can talk about for fall market?  

Jason Phillips (33:54): Yeah, always. Um, casting boulders.  

Sue Wadden (33:59): Fun.  

Jason Phillips (33:59): Hopefully not like many other people, but yeah, we are, we've been casting these incredible rock forms. We started with, um, freestanding eight-foot-tall forms that landscape architects can use outside properties. We started noticing our customers were using them inside. So instead of a baby grand piano at the bottom of a wraparound staircase, they're putting our sculptures there. Starting to take what we've learned from creating sculptures, that's usually where we start both floor and wall sculptures, and then turning it into furniture. That's the next step for us. So rock forms as coffee tables, side tables, consoles, mirrors, in finishes you would expect that sort of replicate nature, but also in these pastels that we started talking to.  

Sue Wadden (34:41): That's gonna be great.  

Jason Phillips (34:42): Yeah.  

Sue Wadden (34:42): So wor- will that be at the show? Is that something I can check out?  

Jason Phillips (34:45): Yeah. That will be at October market? Yep. Mm-hmm.  

Sue Wadden (34:46): Great. Very excited about that.  

Jason Phillips (34:48): Absolutely.  

Sue Wadden (34:48): Um-  

Jason Phillips (34:48): Yeah.  

Sue Wadden (34:48): Well, you know, your tagline is wonderful. Every piece a conversation. Um, has that been a legacy tagline or is that something new?  

Jason Phillips (34:55): I think it's always been part of our DNA, something that, a, a product that is meaningful just beyond, beyond just the way it looks, but a significance beyond it. So every piece a conversation starts leaning into what's the story behind this piece? It's a tagline that was born about 20 years ago in our 40-year history but has always been our sort of north star. And we want pieces that are significant, that stop people, that make you think, that every time you come home you say, "That's beautiful." That you learn the story about and all the stories are on our website and that you wanna tell people about.  

Sue Wadden (35:30): That's interesting. Um, and I know I've seen some YouTube videos that you've published. So is all that content on your website that people can check out and-  

Jason Phillips (35:37): Yeah.  

Sue Wadden (35:37): ... and kinda learn the story, the, the-  

Jason Phillips (35:38): Yes.  

Sue Wadden (35:40): ... the story of Philip's Collection? That's fantastic.  

Jason Phillips (35:42): Absolutely. Yeah. And I mean, we have, we have videos on our YouTube page and our website that show how we work with amethyst out of Brazil and go into the mines and how we are inspired by Cycladic art, as I was talking about before, how we work with wood and how we collect pieces that would be rejected by other people and turn them into things that are twice exceptional. We love telling stories about the things that inspire us. We've learned over 40 years a few things that we geek out on that the, that the consumer isn't as interested in. Okay. That's sort of redirected how we navigate things.  (36:16): But I think we have a confidence in what we do, a confidence in scale and being different and being unique, but leaning heavily on what do consumers say about our product to help shape the next collection and leaning heavily on, you know, resources like you. I think Sherwin-Williams, you guys do an excellent job inspiring us, being a compass for us for what's gonna come next. So I'm as excited as you are about your 2026 forecast 'cause it will steer our decisions. We could see a lavender that inspires us to do something with scale or with tree trunks that, you know, you wouldn't even realize is affecting the way we think about things. So-  

Sue Wadden (36:58): That's exciting.  

Jason Phillips (36:58): Yeah.  

Sue Wadden (36:59): Well, that's great to hear. So something that just sparked my interest. So do you have an example of something that you thought was gonna be amazing and it just didn't work? Like I think that's a fascinating side of design.  

Jason Phillips (37:08): All of the time.  

Sue Wadden (37:09): (laughs).  

Jason Phillips (37:12): Um, yeah, but yeah. Yeah, I can, I'm sure I could think of something right now. We were just looking at items that need to be discontinued. Yeah, we've done a lot. Uh, I'm just gonna off the cuff here, working a lot with mixing wood with metal, and we use black, black metal a lot, matte black, and I think things are trending away from that. But we did a collection called Cornered where it was mainly metal with just a piece of wood sticking out, and we thought it would be a home run and it wasn't. So not to linger too much on that, but, you know, I think through good marketing you kind of hide that stuff.  

Sue Wadden (37:43): (laughs).  

Jason Phillips (37:43): Um-  

Sue Wadden (37:44): Well, you learn from it.  

Jason Phillips (37:44): But anyone out there that thinks they hit home runs all the time, that's, that's nonsense. So being intelligent about always having fresh new product, leaning a lot on the fact that we have some timeless designs that should never go away, but our customers coming to see us at market wanna see new, and then being quick to react to even micro trends in the data. So we're very data heavy. So selling 15 pieces this month of a mirror might not sound a lot to some people, but it might be 200% growth over the month before. And, and, you know, then we start flagging things and designing into the data that we have on this product. It's not as, as sexy or interesting to, to a designer, but there's a lot of information that you can glean just from sales and, and how you forecast for the next collection.  (38:31): I mean, a forecast is really no, nobody knows that word better than Sherwin-Williams in terms of, you know, confidently anticipating where the market is going to go. We have the luxury of being able to lean on you and all the research you've done. Let's not squander that. So-  

Sue Wadden (38:46): Right.  

Jason Phillips (38:46): Sometimes, like the browns, we've been trying to get back. We, we have, uh, beautiful woods from Southeast Asia that are a lighter brown, and we've been staining them to a darker brown. We even called it perfect brown. We thought we had the perfect brown. It was like our version of American walnut, never got the traction it needed. Do we give up on it? Do we keep trying? I think the answer is the latter and I'm encouraged by what you were saying, how you see it coming back into the home.  

Sue Wadden (39:12): Definitely, like that mid-tone hi- almost a hickory, you get a little bit of like that smoky undertone. So there's like, a little, it doesn't skew like cherry warm, you know-  

Jason Phillips (39:21): Yeah.  

Sue Wadden (39:21): ... like it did 15 years ago. It's a little smokier. It's a little earthier.  

Jason Phillips (39:25): Yeah.  

Sue Wadden (39:26): Um, again, maybe a little black undertone in that brown. And I just think that that makes it look, again, it's not espresso, right? We're not talking about espresso floors-  

Jason Phillips (39:33): Right.  

Sue Wadden (39:33): ... like we did in 2004. Um, it's something new, but it's a subtle variation. Talk about black. So where are you seeing black change and shift to in metallics or metals or surface?  

Jason Phillips (39:45): We've gotten to flat finishes. That's sort of the best answer I can give to that. Um, the less sheen, the better.  

Sue Wadden (39:52): The better.  

Jason Phillips (39:53): But maybe that's run its course. So we've gone from semi-gloss to satin to flat, and I think we need to trend back towards satin semi-gloss.  

Sue Wadden (40:03): Yeah, a little-  

Jason Phillips (40:03): We've never been known to be a glossy type of company, but a deep black that almost, you know, absorbs the light and doesn't have a reflection has, has been a very high-contrast finish for us. So it, it helps celebrate and ground the other forms that you're communicating with it. So our acacia wood from northern Thailand, we call it golden acacia, um, just contrasts so nicely with the black. It's a forever finish for us, this flat black, but you know, we wanna be deliberate. Um, maybe even start playing with textures on the black.  

Sue Wadden (40:35): Yeah. I can tell you this. There is, um, some interesting things happening in Europe with silver metallics. So, so we like, we're in, when we were in Italy and we were seeing surface, um, not like a mercury glass finish. It's not that high shine.  

Jason Phillips (40:49): Yeah.  

Sue Wadden (40:50): But silver, silver tones, like true silvers-  

Jason Phillips (40:52): I love that.  

Sue Wadden (40:52): ... are starting to peek back in. So that may be a little bit of a break from kind of the black-  

Jason Phillips (40:57): Great.  

Sue Wadden (40:57): ... uh, conversation, which is good. I think, I think we're due. It's kind of like at its peak. And so I think-  

Jason Phillips (41:02): Yeah.  

Sue Wadden (41:02): ... we'll start to see it changing.  

Jason Phillips (41:03): Oh, we're ready for it too. I mean, we, look, if we have a finish too long in the line, we're ready to try something new despite sales numbers. Sometimes you have to, it's very easy in hindsight to say, "Okay, that collection's run its course. But I'm always impressed by the companies that make pivots mid-market to their success. You know, it's not about dropping something, it's, it's about saying, "You know what, let's, let's not retire, but let's start migrating in a different direction even while it's still hot," you know, to push relevance. And-  

Sue Wadden (41:36): That's a market leader, right? The, the companies that can do that, or the brands that can do that, they're really driving the conversation forward, which-  

Jason Phillips (41:42): Yes.  

Sue Wadden (41:43): ... is really important. And designers know that. Instinctively, they can, they can plot those patterns and they see who's pushing-  

Jason Phillips (41:49): Yeah.  

Sue Wadden (41:49): ... um, and changing and evolving. So it's, it's fantastic. Well, this has been an amazing conversation, super fascinating to me. I hope all our listeners enjoyed. Um, and you've been a great guest, so thank you so much for joining us.  

Jason Phillips (42:00): Oh, thanks. Thank you. Yeah, this has been wonderful. Thanks for having me. You know, people can find us, phillipscollection.com or through our social media. Would love to create dialog with any listeners that found something valuable to them.  

Sue Wadden (42:12): Yes. And if you, you're at Fall Market, come see you. Where are you guys at? Where's your showroom?  

Jason Phillips (42:16): We have a-  

Sue Wadden (42:16): Do you have a standalone?  

Jason Phillips (42:17): ... in the last year and a half, we moved into a new space street level at the corner of Commerce and Main.  

Sue Wadden (42:21): Okay.  

Jason Phillips (42:22): So easy to find us right on the main pathway.  

Sue Wadden (42:24): Easy to find. Well, I'll come see you.  

Jason Phillips (42:26): Yeah.  

Sue Wadden (42:26): I'll be there for sure.  

Jason Phillips (42:27): Wonderful.  

Sue Wadden (42:28): Well, thanks, Jason.  

Jason Phillips (42:29): All right. Thank you so much, Sue.  

Sue Wadden (42:34): As always, we'd like to take a moment to congratulate our August designer of the month, Charlotte's own Stephanie Calderon. Her exceptional work has been celebrated in Architectural Digest, Better Homes & Gardens, and Charlotte Magazine. And we invite you to help us congratulate her on social media at SW Design Pros, and find out more at Stephaniecalderoninteriors.com. Thanks so much for listening. Don't forget to subscribe, leave us a review and tell other design and color lovers about our show. See you next time on Colormixology.